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Your host, John B. Manos, unpacks what he calls a “detente with the devil”—a stagnant truce with error driven by fear of schism, offending others, or driving people away. This fear, he argues, has allowed modernists to dominate, sidelining the faithful who dream of a Church that reveres Our Lord with clear catechesis, traditional practices like communion on the tongue, and orthodox hymns.
John explores several key questions:
- Who are the real “dreamers” in the Church?
- With whom should we be building bridges?
- Who is truly marginalized?
- Where are the faithful dreamers who long for reverence?
Through historical analogies (like the Soviet detente under Brezhnev), biblical examples (Judas, Peter, the Sanhedrin), and personal anecdotes, John critiques the Church’s obsession with “building bridges” to groups like homosexuals and immigrants while ignoring traditional Catholics. He highlights the failure of catechesis—70% of his Catholic school classmates left the faith due to “guitar masses, felt banners, crappy hymns, and error taught as catechism”—and notes a hopeful trend: young Catholics (Gen X and Gen Y) returning to the TLM to rediscover the faith’s beauty.
Originally aired in 2018 during Pope Francis’s papacy, this episode’s insights remain strikingly relevant in 2025 under Pope Leo XIV. John’s warning of a “detente with the devil” eerily foreshadows recent events, like the Diocese of Charlotte’s 2025 TLM ban, where the faithful are guilt-tripped into compliance rather than supported. Read more about that crisis here.
Key Moments in the Episode
- 0:00 – 2:00: Introduction and opening prayer (Hail Mary, invocations to Our Lady of Częstochowa and Fatima).
- 2:00 – 5:00: Why traditional Catholics feel marginalized: “Why aren’t these people building bridges with us?”
- 5:00 – 10:00: The “detente with the devil” metaphor: tolerating error out of fear of schism.
- 10:00 – 15:00: Fear in the Church: Father Rutler and Mother Teresa’s reluctance to speak out on communion in the hand.
- 15:00 – 20:00: Bishops’ failure to shepherd: squandering the “future of the church” by prioritizing immigrants over local Catholics.
- 20:00 – 25:00: The TLM’s revival among young Catholics: a hopeful sign amidst modernist stagnation.
- 25:00 – End: The sacredness of the Eucharist and the need for a worthy reception, with a call to speak the truth without fear.
Notable Quotes
- “Why is it that us traditional Catholics feel like we’re on the margins? Why aren’t these people building bridges with us? Why aren’t the bishops standing with us dreamers who dream for a day when our Lord is revered the way He ought to be, who dream of a day when just being taught clear catechism, easy things, like communion in the hand, a reverend Mass, hymns that aren’t gnostic or heretical?”
- “See, even if the devil’s sitting there at the table with them, nobody will say he’s wrong. That’s the detente within the church.”
Why This Episode Matters Now
John’s 2018 analysis predicted the alienation of traditional Catholics we’re seeing today. Just one for instance: The Diocese of Charlotte’s recent TLM ban, with its tone-deaf standby statements, proves the point: the Church continues to sideline its own dreamers for a mirage of unity, tolerating error while blaming the faithful. If you’re frustrated by the Church’s direction, particularly in America with regard to the traditional Latin Mass, this episode will resonate deeply.
This article, Detente with the Devil and Stagnation of the Church… How Bridges, Margins, Dreamers, and Fear of Schism Have Subverted Our Faith: BFP011 is a post from The Bellarmine Forum.
https://bellarmineforum.org/detente-with-the-devil-and-stagnation-of-the-church-how-bridges-margins-dreamers-and-fear-of-schism-have-subverted-our-faith-bfp011/
Do not repost the entire article without written permission. Reasonable excerpts may be reposted so long as it is linked to this page.
The Bellarmine Forum Podcast is Catholic commentary on anything from history, philosophy, and current events. Best viewed as an after-dinner chat.
Fear of Offending God must before all else, or, one will lose one’s soul! “If you love me, keep my Commandments!” John 14:15
For what it’s worth, I much prefer blog articles to podcasts, especially when the authors are erudite like Mr. Manos and his guest contributors. Just a personal preference. It’s one thing to half-listen to a bunch of 50-something Star Wars nerds discussing variations in Han Solo action figures. If you miss something, no big deal.
Bellarmine deals with much more serious-minded topics and their coverage often makes it worthwhile to save the articles as well. Podcasts don’t lend themselves very well to being quoted, either.
Spiffy, thanks be to God for your complement! So, you tempt me to talk about Star Wars in the next episode! Hah!
I was considering repurposing this episode because many people have said it was good. I like the comments because it surprised me in a good way and helps me figure out what hits home and makes it worth listening. 🙂
I hear you that you like to see it written out. I’ll see what I can do!
I greatly appreciated this podcast. Not solely due to what it covered, but largely because of its presentation – a friendly, interesting, one-way dialogue which nonetheless seemed like a two-way conversation because it “spoke to me”, addressing many of the same concerns I have with today’s church (note my purposeful use of lower case “c” – today’s church is not Christ’s Church). Unlike the other comment, I prefer having faithful podcasts available. Unfortunately, I cannot dedicate as much time as I would like to reading, but I am able to listen to podcasts as I complete my many recurring (mindless) tasks. Thank you.
Ann, thanks be to God!!!! We are due for more episodes (way over due, in fact). Your kind comment spurs me to get those going sooner! Pray for us! Managing schedules and guests as well as just setting aside the time that is so precious for everyone so we can make these long form episodes takes a lot!