When Pub Talks Turn to Fights: Of Gruner, Schism, Russia, Secrets, Fatima, and Plots Against The Plan of Mary
When the Pub talk Goes Sour, the Fisticuffs Ensue…
I will be the first to admit that I love chewing on the tasty morsels of prophecy and end times. You can’t beat it — if the end is the conclusion, then you get to solve the puzzle working backwards to now. This is the great life of pub talk whereby one should be able to assemble a convincing series of correlations and observations, drink a beer and then listen as someone else at the table picks it apart and replies with their take. Nothing wrong with disagreeing, too. It’s all fun. Well, it is until some topics come up.
Some drinkers avoid politics. Other drinkers avoid religion. They’ll debate anything else, but they avoid those topics because a fight always ensues. The same seems to hold in Catholic apocrypha anymore… You can say that Matreya is alive and he’s the anti-christ, and people can argue that all night long, but the minute anyone brings up these verboten topics, the gloves fall to the floor, and the slaps and punches start. To wit, not a full list, but some third rails of traditionalist Catholic pub talk include:
- Was the Third Secret of Fatima fully revealed?
- Was Russia Consecrated?
- Are the so-called messages of Medjugorje a fraud?
- Was Fr. Gruner correct?
Now, those are questions that depend on analysis. They should be fun to discuss. No. Try it the next time you are at a Rosary cenacle: Yell out, right after the Prayer to St. Michael the archangel: RUSSIA WAS CONSECRATED BY POPE JOHN PAUL II. Do it! I dare you! You can do it.
In the middle of a stream of phrases about Sr. Lucy was killed, the false prophet, the windswept house, bishops, by name, see if you don’t get hit with a cast iron pan. Also, try to keep count of how many times each phrase is used.
Ask them how Russia has nearly ended abortion, has a flat income tax of 14% (that’s it…), abolished property taxes in 2003 (because property taxes end private land ownership), rebuilt the Cathedral of Christ Our Savior, flourished churches, or any other series of facts about how Russia today is nothing like that of the 70s or 80s even, and you’ll hear one thing: they have not converted.
Consecrated Russia Will Be Roman?
Russian State Photo showing Putin Reverencing the Blessed Mother a part of his inauguration ceremony (May 7, 2012) (Photo: Kremlin)
I suppose the viewpoint is that Russia should have all Latin Masses. Nevermind that Russia was never a Roman land. It was the Rus Church (Ruthenian) and there was the Russian Greek-Catholic. (yes, my people were the ones who could get the hard headed slavs to organize into society and go to Church — even the Germans couldn’t handle that). There’s more detail than worth going into here, but that’s the gist. To them, the proof that Russia wasn’t consecrated is that it hasn’t converted (to Latin Mass). I suppose it doesn’t matter that Putin reinstated that age old practice of Russia where the inauguration of Russia’s leader occurs in Annunciation Cathedral and includes reverencing the Blessed Mother.
Yes. They will insist that it hasn’t happened. You see, Everyone would be going to Latin Mass in Russia if it had. I cannot explain what they must be thinking any other way.
The False Profit…???
Worse, if you show them pictures like that, they will insist that it is fake… that Putin is putting on an act. If you keep an arm’s length from the insults, it is funny. Sometimes it is fun to get everyone all riled up, just so you can see the spectacle. It’s especially fun if you see someone else taking the heat and getting hit by the frying pan. Well, not really. It should be fun, but the people who throw the insults do so with the utmost rigor of apocalyptic heft (which is only but a few ounces lighter than an anathema).
If you are lucky, you may even be told that you aren’t Catholic.
Pub Fights at New Oxford Review this Month
With that all said, I am tickled by the Letters to the Editor section of this month’s New Oxford Review. In it, several topics of perennial angst appear that I still find rather amusing after all this time. Those topics are Fr. Gruner, the Consecration of Russia, and the anti-pope. Into this gruel, we ought to sprinkle in some days of darkness, the great chastisement, and some references to Matreya. Well, OK, nobody mentioned Matreya over there. There is a lot of huffing about Fr. Gruner, though.
On the NOR page linked above, scroll down near the end to Marie Haas, who says, “Are you seriously suggesting that Russia has already been consecrated to Our Lady of Fatima — as the Vatican insists — and that the violence engulfing the world is the ‘peace’ she promised us? Do you think we are all idiots?”
That’s good stuff. I am tempted to say “yes.” Among other things, Russia has shown incredible restraint despite constant provocations from the United States of late. Despite calls in D.C. to nuke Russia, that hasn’t happened. Besides, world peace is the after effect. The prophecy, with regard to Russia, was not the wars, but instead that Russia would spread her errors throughout the world. I’ve written on what Russia herself said those errors were. Recently, I wrote again that St. Maximillian Kolbe set out against those same errors. The standard was not world peace. The standard was whether Russia would convert. From there, peace would come.
INSTANT WORLD PEACE™ (just add Fatima Crusader)
I think people try to insist that the Blessed Mother intended to have this conversion and effect be instant. Well, I don’t need to guess, I’ve been told that by fans of Fr. Gruner. They interpret it that once the consecration happened, according to whatever the latest set of rules is, instantly everyone in the world changes. Instantly. Even Folgers instant coffee crystals take a moment after you add the water… you have to stir it even. Ninety-nine years of momentum since Russia spread her errors would instantly be gone. I believe that God could accomplish that, in fact. So I can’t fault them that way. But, I never heard “instant” in what the Blessed Mother said — I think they added that. In fact, the Blessed Mother seemed to suggest otherwise. “it will be too late, but in the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph.”
That doesn’t sound instant to me. That sounds like a battle. That sounds like the grace needs to be stirred into the world much like stirring the Folgers crystals.
See also the letter from Ramona Stevens, wherein she’s says,
“We, the devotees of the late Nicholas Gruner, cannot believe the NOR editor’s ignorance and resultant stupidity when he called Fr. Gruner’s tireless and sacrificial efforts to satisfy the requests of the Mother of God a ‘conspiratorial claim of an alleged ‘cover up’ of the Fatima event’ (ed. note, Jan.-Feb.). Shame on you! Yes, you are indeed guilty of ‘nastiness’ and ‘unwarranted rudeness,’ as Patricia D. Scott said (letter, Jan.-Feb.). How dare you!”
I have a problem with her claim here. I also think we need some explaining here. Rather than the rest of the insults that they throw around, I would like to set one thing straight about Fr. Gruner: he was wrong about the third secret. You can’t get around that fact. He erred. He was human. That’s not an attack or insult on Fr. Gruner.
The Third Secret of Fatima Was Revealed By Mary Herself in 1973 (so get over it)
You see, for all the talks about how the Blessed Mother urged, through Sr. Lucy, the Holy Pontiff to reveal the third secret by 1960 (or 1962), it didn’t happen. We don’t know if it was even the Pope’s fault, for Heaven’s sake. For all we know, by 1973, the Blessed Mother decided to reveal the secret herself.
Probably driven by the sacrifices of Town of the Immaculate in Japan, Mary decided to break the secret herself. Mary owned the third secret. She could break it.
She came to Sr. Sasagawa and explained that bishop is against bishop and the devil is strong, even in the church. Stop taking Communion in the hand. If people did not repent, Fire would fall from Heaven. Nevermind that the Blessed Mother started her message to Sr. Sasagawa on October 13. See more in the Akita section on this post.
Repeat after Me: Akita was the Third Secret of Fatima Revealed and More
Oh, and our Blessed Mother told an Italian nun (Sr. Aiello) about that fire from Heaven, too. Now you know why Pope Benedict XVI, then Cardinal Ratzinger, said that the third secret really wasn’t anything not out there already.
Yet, follow the logic of Fr. Gruner. He insists that the Holy Father submarined the whole third secret. That somehow, the Pope was set against doing what the Blessed Mother asked. Such delusions were misleading at best. The Blessed Mother was capable, and did, take care of any such nonsense. Fr. Gruner used it as a wedge to put between the faithful and the Pope.
To set it up as if we still haven’t seen the entire third secret and that there’s yet a fourth secret out there was just enough to keep the banner waving on a good gig.
I wish, however, we’d spend more time doing what she asked: prayer and penance.
HOLD THIS THOUGHT ABOUT FR. GRUNER and the insinuation that the Pope was working against the Blessed Mother… I promise I’ll tie that together in another post later this week…
Meanwhile, head over to NOR letters to the editor and see the fisticuffs and Pieter Vree’s reply. It’s fun.
This article, When Pub Talks Turn to Fights: Of Gruner, Schism, Russia, Secrets, Fatima, and Plots Against The Plan of Mary is a post from The Bellarmine Forum.
https://bellarmineforum.org/when-pub-talks-turn-to-fights-of-gruner-schism-russia-secrets-fatima-and-plots-against-the-plan-of-mary/
Do not repost the entire article without written permission. Reasonable excerpts may be reposted so long as it is linked to this page.
Letters to the editor like that kinda make me sad. Sigh, I wish Catholics, at least the ones I know like this, would spend as much time reading the bible – it’s all there – prayer, penance, signs in the moon and stars. Oh, and love. Thank you Mr. Manos.
I enjoy discussing Catholic things although I have never have done so in a pub, bar or otherwise!
Mr. Manos writes: To wit, not a full list, but some third rails of traditionalist Catholic pub talk include:
•Was the Third Secret of Fatima fully revealed?
The answer is a polite but firm “NO” the Third Secret wasn’t fully revealed and not by Our Lady of Akita in 1973 either. Akita was primarily a warning of chastisement.
More truth about the Third Secret has been revealed on the Feast of Pentecost.
http://www.onepeterfive.com/cardinal-ratzinger-not-published-whole-third-secret-fatima/
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger told Fr. Dollinger during an in-person conversation that there is still a part of the Third Secret that they have not published! “There is more than what we published,” Ratzinger said. He also told Dollinger that the published part of the Secret is authentic and that the unpublished part of the Secret speaks about “a bad council and a bad Mass” that was to come in the near future.
Thanks. I saw that article. Akita was about more than chastisement. Recall, Akita said “bishop against bishop, Cardinal against Cardinal”. It said that the fight was in the Church. So, please review Akita again.
That there are Marxists in the Church is not new either. Bella Dodd said it but we also had the booklet AA-1025. People dismissed it as fiction. Nonetheless, we know it by that book and Dodd. Akita told us as well.
I can see I need to write something more thorough in a post.
Mr. Manos,
You are welcome. I’m glad you saw the 1P5 article.
Please review it again…and you’ll see that, among other things, Fr. Dollinger’s revelation on the Feast of Pentecost AFFIRMS that the Third Secret was not fully revealed.
The unpublished part of the Third Secret reveals a “bad council and a bad Mass”
A “bad council (Vatican II) and a bad Mass” (the Novus Ordo, the New Order of Mass).
You write: The Third Secret of Fatima Was Revealed By Mary Herself in 1973 (so get over it)
http://olrl.org/prophecy/akita.shtml
Quote: Only a few Catholics know of Our Lady of Akita but the message, like that of Fatima, is a specific warning of worldwide chastisement.
If Our Lady of Akita mentioned “a bad Council and a bad Mass”, please show me where.
I pray the Akita Prayer every day and have for years.
Why is the world in such turmoil today? The answer may surprise you. It is not because of the Muslims, the Russians, the Jews, the Americans or the Iranians. It is not because of the communists, capitalists, socialists, Marxists or Fascists. It is not because of philosophers, scientists, politicians or the military. It is not because of abortionists, homosexuals, pornographers or child molesters or child traffickers. It is not due to Wall Street, credit default swaps, tsunamis or melting nuclear reactors. No, the above evils are the result of a much higher power. This group is, with little argument, the most powerful group of men ever assembled on the face of the Earth – so powerful that they have no use of guns or bombs. So powerful are they that whatever they decide to keep or refuse is also done so in Heaven. In a word, the power of God is at their fingertips. No king, no lord, no potentate, no czar, no general has ever had such power. Not even close. All of them combined are like toys compared to the power of this group.
If you haven’t figured it out, they are the Popes of the Catholic Church, the last seven Popes to be exact, the ones given the command from Heaven to consecrate RUSSIA to the Immaculate Heart of Mary: The sad fact is, all the power they possess means nothing unless they use it. Unfortunately, these Popes, for one reason or another, have failed to honor Heaven and obey the simple command TO CONSECRATE RUSSIA.
If all the wars in the world are added up during the pontificate of John Paul II, we find more conflicts in that three decade period than at any other time in history. The following is a partial list of the wars that occurred in the 1980’s, 1990’s and 2000’s (pg. 26,27, 28…name of the book at the end), almost all of which occurred on the watch of John Paul II who, from 1984 to 2005 when he died, performed five ‘consecrations of the world” (1981- 1984, 2000) and conducted seven grand total prayer meetings with non-Christians (1986-2002), for grand total of dozen events he conducted, specifically for world peace but with absolutely no peace to show for it.
On one hand, we can agree that Russia has changed somewhat. In fact, Russia has changed enough that, in many respects, it is probably more moralistic than the United States and many other NATO countries. On the other hand, the fact remain that RUSSIA is still the chosen arm of God’s wrath, and will remain so whether it is moral or immoral. One only needs to read the newspapers headlines (especially in Poland…my emphasis), to know that Russia is very involved in world affairs and continues to flex its muscle.
OUR LADY’s words stated that one of the main purposes for the consecration of Russia was for the conversion of that nation. We can surmise, then, that once converted, God will use Russia to convert the rest of the world, for it is only then that a ‘period of peace’ will have fertile soil to be established.
With Church paralyzed by Vatican II’s error of collegiality, Vatican bureaucrats will continue to manage the Message of Fatima unless and until the Pope (Pope Francis) decides to exercise his primacy over the Church. To that end, we must both pray for and appeal to the Pope TO RESTORE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST BY OBEYING OUR LADY’S COMMAND.
……excerpt from ‘The Consecration of Russia” by John Salza and Robert Sungenis
Jesu Maria Joseph we love You, save souls!
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us!
Most people + including Catholics + do not know nor understand about the Message of Fatima. They do not know that Heaven has given us the only solution for world peace and that the solution has been ignored by those responsible for obeying Heaven’s request. That most Catholics do not know about this dire message + the Message of Fatima + is a result of the very crisis revealed by Our Lady ‘in the message itself.’ In the last 50 years, the Catholic Church has been paralyzed by a ‘diabolical disorientation’ which has muzzled the message of the Queen of Prophets and restrained the Popes from implementing Her prescriptions. Satan has unleashed all the powers of hell to thwart the consecration of Russia and preserve his flourishing kingdom on Earth. And he has directed his primary attack at the Popes and clergy of the Catholic Church. For nearly a century, the Popes, have failed to heed a repeated and direct command from Heaven to perform a simple prayer of consecration which has resulted in the incomprehensible loss of millions upon millions of lives and souls. A more tragic scenario for the Catholic Church and the world is difficult to imagine.
If in March 1984 John Paul II performed a legitimate consecration that was supposed to fulfill the 1929 request, should he not have waited for the peace promised from Heaven? His Assisi gathering in October 1986 was just two and a half years after his March 1984 consecration, which means that the planning of Assisi 1986 must have occurred much earlier, for large events are not put together overnight. If the Fatima consecration were finally fulfilled in 1984 would we not have expected Heaven to shower us with peace and prosperity after 50 years of virtual hell on Earth in the early and mid-twentieth century? After all, when Pope Benedict XV prayed publicly to Mary for peace to end the World War I, within eight days, on May 13, 1917, God sent Mary to Fatima to tell the Pope that the war would soon end. In the final apparition of October 13, 1917 She provided the MIRACLE OF THE SUN to confirm Her message, witnessed by 70,000 people and verified by the secular newspapers. World War I came to an end the next year.
It is also odd that John Paul II put such great effort into bringing pagans and non-Christians to Assisi – an effort that must have cost millions of dollars – yet no effort was made to bring even a representative sample of the world’s bishops to Rome to help in performing the 1984 consecration. How ironic that African animists, Buddhists, and dozens of other non-Christian religious leaders came to the doorstep of Rome in 1986, but Rome’s own bishops were nowhere to be seen in 1984 (and perhaps they would not come because many of the had already discredited the Fatima visions and the delusions of childhood fantasies, thatnks to the one man the Vatican hired to dissuade them, Father Eduoard Dhanis, S.J.
John Paul II’s seven interreligious prayer gatherings of 1986 through 2002 were the ‘mountains and seas’ he created for himself. But right up to his death in 2005 he never attained the world peace he sought; but ever more disastrous was that the Church was falling apart at the seams. Europe and South America where the Church is also facing an increasing Muslim population and Protestant proselytizing. Same similar decline is also true for Ireland and Scotland……..(the holy Catholic Church is in shambles……universally, my emphasis)……Ave Maria!
As Our Lord said to Sister Lucia: “They did not wish to heed my request. Like the King of France, they will repent and do it, but it will be late. Russia will have already spread her errors throughout the world, provoking wars and persecutions of the Church; the Holy Father will have much to suffer.”
…..from ‘The Consecration of Russia’…..John Salza, Robert Sungenis
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ (Catholics), pray that Holy Father Pope Francis, will consecrate the nation of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary with the world’s bishops as Our Lady requested at Fatima. Pray for the conversion to the One True Faith of the schismatic Orthodox Church! Pray for Catholic Russia!!!
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us!
……continuation from the book ‘The Consecration of Russia’…..
‘In addressing the controversy of the Consecration of Russia, it is first necessary to explain why the Message of Fatima is a public prophetic revelation that obligates all men, and not a mere ‘private revelation’ that Catholics can take or leave as they wish. Many are familiar with two kinds of revelation: General revelation revealed in Scripture and Tradition and which ended with Christ and the apostles (Deposit of Faith), and private revelation which God occasionally gives to certain individuals. The Deposit of Faith binds all men (what God wills all to believe and do for salvation), while private revelation binds only the person to whom the communication was directed (what God additionally requires of an individual person).There is a third type of revelation, however, called public prophetic revelation, or public prophecy. It is unique in that God gives it through a prophet after the apostolic age, but intends the message for all humanity. To deny the existence of public prophetical revelation would mean that God cannot continue to communicate with humanity after the period of general revelation on matters that affect their salvation. That, of course, is not true. Scripture reveals that God will in fact continue to speak to us during the time of the Catholic Church. God reveals through the prophet Joel 2:28-29: “ And upon my servants indeed, and upon my handmaids will I pour out in those days my spirit, and they shall prophesy.”
Such prophecy is not limited to the period of general revelation. Scripture teaches us that prophets existed in the Church after Christ’s ascension into Heaven, which means that prophets can exist in the Church today (Acts 2:17-18; 21:9; 1 Cor 13:9; 14:1,5,24,31,39; 1 Tim 4:4; Apoc 10:11; 11:3). Further St. Paul says that the Church is “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone: In whom all the building, being framed together groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord” (Eph 2:1-21). He also says, “And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles (1 Cor 12:28). Just as the Church is built upon the apostles and their successors (the bishops), the Church is also built upon the prophets of the New Testament. These prophets include Lucia, Jacinta, Francisco, and of course, the Queen of Prophets, the Blessed Virgin Mary. Hence, God continues to speak to the Church through His prophets, and when He does, we are all obliged to listen and obey.
St. Thomas Aquinas elaborates by teaching that God sends prophets throughout the Church age to guide human actions to further His plan of salvation. Specifically, he says that prophecy is ‘directed to the knowledge of Divine truth, by the contemplation of which we are not only instructed in faith but also guided in our actions, according to Psalm 42:3, ‘Send forth Thy light and Thy truth: they have conducted me.’ To that end St. Thomas says, “As regards the guidance of human acts...men were divinely instructed about what they were to do, according as it was expediet for the spiritual welfare of the elect.” (Summa Theologica II-II, Q. 174, Art. 6.)
In other words when God intervenes in human history with prophetic revelations, He is telling us what we must do to save our souls. Those who listen and obey will be saved. Those who hear and deliberately disobey will be damned. As Scripture says, “When prophesy shall fail, the people shall be scattered abroad” (Prov 28:19).
This revelation is confirmed by the Message of Fatima, which is a message of salvation or damnation, depending upon the actions of men (especially the Popes).’
Dearest Mother, dearest Mother, Our Lady of Fatima, pray for the consecrated, give them the graces, O Mother, to keep their divine mission always before their eyes. !
Let us thank God, that He founded the Roman Catholic Apostolic Church.
Let us pray for the supreme head of the Church, the Pope at Rome,
that he may be given the grace to follow St. Peter in zeal for religion and the salvation of souls.
Amen.
We need to talk about this… I know Fr. Gruner used to advance this position of moral compulsion through his desire to make Fatima a “public revelation”. By this, he’d impute a moral duty.
My dedication to prayer and fasting, and my love of Our Lady is not at question, nor would I hope it be, if I make the following observation from Fr. John A. Hardon (who also loved Fatima and the Blessed Mother). Says Fr. Hardon:
As much as I love the message of Fatima, one simply cannot misunderstand it to be critical to salvation. It is critical to the situation we find ourselves in and, as the Blessed Mother herself said, “so many souls are going to hell” and the sins of the people living cry to Heaven. Yes, obviously, the message means something, but it is not “public revelation” in the sense that Fr. Gruner argued it to be.
A person who read the Fatima accounts, shrugged, and never did what was said but continued a life of virtue and communion with the Church and frequent reception of the sacraments will not go to hell because they failed to do something instructed by Fatima. Nor can we impute moral obligation on the Pope. We can’t. I know many people want to do that over this issue, but it’s not correct to do so.
With all of that said, read this.
Dear Mr. Manos, you have eaten too many morsels, they got you drunk with pride, you are having too much fun (only for a short time), at the expense of a faithful Catholic priest, not once, not twice, but many times. But, we should not fret, it is a sign from Heaven, for every soldier of Christ will be mocked, spat on, persecuted, while following the Royal Way of The Cross…..straight into the Beatific Vision…..Gloria Patri…..!
Mr. Manos if I can suggest anything to you, please talk to God, for your own good, and I say that in charity. If you doubt, or disagree, the best thing to do is to, please get in touch with the authors of the book, this would be a great opportunity for you, to have a ‘dialogue.’ John Salza’s, Fatima Private Revelation or Public Prophecy?” May 14, 2012 at http://www.scripturecatholic.com
So, the good book says.........”In fact, divine revelation (the first type) ‘requires’ us to obey public prophetic revelation (the third type), because public prophetic revelation echoes and affirms divine revelation. God Himself imposes the obligation. St. Paul says: “Extinguish not the spirit. Despise not prophecies. But prove all things; hold fast that which is good,” then we must “hold fast” to it.
The Church has indeed tested the Fatima prophecies, including its accompanying miracles and accurate predictions of future events, and found them to come from God. Since Heaven gave the command to consecrate Russia in 1929, every single Pope (from Pius XI to Benedict XVI) has affirmed the divine truth of Fatima (in 2002, Pope John Paul II decreed that the Feast of Our Lady of Fatiama be included in the Church’s universal calendar of liturgical feast days). As we noted, on the 90th anniversary of Fatima, Pope Benedict XVI even stated, “The apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima.....are without a doubt, the most prophetic of all modern apparitions” (sermon at Fatima, May 13, 2007).
Further, the Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517) declared that the Pope has the final authority to determine and interpret prophecy. Therefore, the Deposit of Faith and the dogmatic teaching of the Church obligate us to believe and obey approved public prophecy, which includes the Fatima prophecies above all. If we don’t, St. Paul says we ‘extinguish the spirit,’ that is, we resist the Holy Ghost. In light of the Scripture, Lucia even said that despising the Fatima message is a sin against the Holy Ghost, and Jesus revealed that this is the unpardonable sin (St. Matthew 12:31-32). This is why Pope John Paul II, on the 65th anniversary of Fatima, declared that “the Message (of Fatima) imposes an obligation on the Church” (sermon at Fatima, May 13, 1982). Private revelations impose no such obligation (to view John Salza’s presentation on this topic, please see “Fatima: Private Revelation or Public Prophecy?” May 14, 2012 at www.scripturecatholic.com
Those who call Fatima a mere “private revelation” are generally people who either do not believe in the Fatima apparitions, or are trying to somehow mitigate the gravity of the Popes’ disobedience to the divine mandates in the Message. This is a common opinion on mainstream Catholic radio and television. As Catholics, these people are embarrassed by the actions or, in this case, the inactions of the Popes, and rightly so. But that is no excuse for obfuscating the truth. Whatever their motivation to argue that Fatima is a ‘private revelation’ is lunacy at best and a lie at worst.
As Bishop Rudolph Graber said plainly: “A careful distinction should be made between personal revelation and those where the message is declared to be for mankind at large. The former can with equanimity be ignored. But the latter must be taken seriously. And Fatima belongs to this category.” (World Enslavement of Peace, Fr. Nicholas Gruner, Fort Erie, Canada).
May those who have ‘ears’ HEAR, and those who have ‘eyes’ SEE! May the scales fall off!
I agree with Salza, and can actually give you more description than he did of who those men with power are. He doesn’t mention what his masonic past revealed — the Masons call them the “secret chiefs.” Alice Bailey, the second successor to Blavatsky over the Theosophical Society, and whose husband was a 33d Mason spoke of the secret chiefs and the externalization of their hierarchy onto the world. I’m not deceived, those are the demons Blavatsky worshipped, and who the Masons admit to run their top.
The third secret reveals as much, between the reference to Balaam (and “sons of Balaam”) by the Angel with the Sword’s presence, and by the hill covered with people in red and white robes — the occult groups bent on infiltrating the Church have always had red and white color standards.
But, Fr. Gruner never talked about what the secrets actually say… he glossed over it and got on to his agenda to sell things and attack the Church.
We can agree all day long on the severity of the situation and what the Blessed Mother warned (most precisely at Akita). I mentioned it earlier in these comments that the warning about the Church being infiltrated and fights within was told at Akita. That you refuse to go read it yourself is confusing. Gruner did you and me and everyone else a disservice by ignoring what the third secret actually did tell us. Gee was too busy fighting with Bertone. The rest of us who listen to the Blessed Mother read every word and realized what the third secret really says, even if Bertone’s interpretation is meaningless, the words of the secret are there to be understood in spite of his trite explanation.
Admit it that Fr. Gruner erred, though. He got several things wrong. One of which was practically putting heresy in the mouth of the Blessed Mother by trying to claim that she changed public revelation. It’s not hogwash…. rather, it’s anathema to suggest such.
Mary, Queen of Angels, Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us!
Dear Mr. Manos,
By the Hand of Providence, an opportunity came to maybe consider that ‘we are all to work out our salvation in fear and trembling’……and that includes ‘you’ and ‘me’. Sometimes, God knocks us off the high horse, in His Mercy, to remove the scales from our eyes. I will share with you part of an email, that at least year ago, I have received from a good friend. Hope after you read it, you’ll reconsider persecuting (while deceiving many), Father Gruner, and the Fatima Message……for your own good.
In Christo et Maria,
Halina
………… Father Gruner was not just a wonderful priest and great apostle of Our Lady of Fatima; he was, in all truthfulness, saint-like. Many others are convinced of it as well. He had the spirituality of a saint, including an exceptional devotion to Mary that was reminiscent of that other great Marian apostle, St. Louis de Montfort (have you read the saint’s splendid work, True Devotion to Mary? If not, consider it a “must” read). Father Gruner had the humility and zeal of a saint, the courage and sense of mission, driving himself beyond human endurance. Laboring without rest, he was known never to take a vacation – never! – and rarely even a day off. Above all he had a great love of the Church, Her Doctrine, Liturgy and Sacred Traditions, and a burning love of God, love of Mary and love of souls.
A priest who, fearing nothing or no one, possessed the moral and intellectual strength and courage of a saint! A priest like Father Nicholas Gruner. One of the finest ones God called to Holy Orders in such irreligious times. Like many a Catholic saint throughout history (who were relentlessly persecuted), Father Gruner not only had a good understanding of the spiritual combat, but no less the Christian combat in its social and counterrevolutionary dimensions, a rarity among priests in general,In this regard, the Fatima Priest more or less avoided pitfalls too common among many priests – even traditional priests – pitfalls such as those which “bind the clergy to the sacristy,” so to speak, and which neutralize the Church’s missionary function; those which incline him to clericalism, that is, an over-zealousness that negates the lay apostolate by exaggerating the role of the priesthood; those which cave in to the liberal notion of the separation of the spiritual and social, or the divorce of piety and militancy, which also works against the Church’s mission to combat the works of Satan and conquer all nations for Christ.
It was undoubtedly a sense of prudence – whether properly or wrongly applied – that kept Father Gruner from speaking his mind in public as he often did to a few trusted friends in private. Now, this should not be interpreted as doubting his sincerity – he was as sincere a man and a priest as God’s Grace had ever formed –, only the practical soundness of such decisions is being questioned, for true prudence I think – and the Church substantiates this view – would have prompted such a holy and knowledgeable priest to exert much more openness with his followers on such monumental issues that impacted the lives and immortal souls of countless numbers of them; issues which the Church’s true Magisterium wasn’t at all silent about, even if her clergy sadly were and are. While Father Gruner was rarely heard to voice certain opinions in public, he definitely confided to his friends,
His unshaken conviction of Rome’s wholesale breakaway from the Catholic Faith;
His absolute certainty of the glories of the Traditional Mass and the unspeakable horrors of the New Mass
Reserved in his Christ-like meekness, yes, no question about it, which was to his credit. But the Fatima Priest that I knew was in no way a fence-sitter, that is, someone with a foot in both camps, playing it safe, avoiding controversy, refusing the Christian’s duty to stand up in the world as signs of contradiction. The opposite: Father Gruner had no dual-loyalties; he was committed to one side only, the side of the Mother of God and Her Divine Son. Still, some of his unscrupulous critics are determined not to let him rest in peace, but are still smearing his good name and reputation even in death……deceiving many thru, their cruel and ridiculous accusations, for which they will have to answer to God.
Here was the Fatima Priest that too few ever knew, no less the same Fatima Priest who spoke so eloquently and fervently as the world’s leading Marian expert and enthusiast. Sadly, because many never saw Father Gruner’s more militant side, a number of overly-judgmental holier-than-thou “so-called Catholics” bitterly attacked this wonderful apostle of Our Lady. Simply because, for years they have been conditioned by the enemies of the holy Church.But didn’t Father Gruner frequently visit Novus Ordo churches? He certainly did, but never in the spirit of heretical ecumenism or religious indifferentism. In doing so he imitated the apostles and Our Lord by going into enemy temples in order to preach the Gospel to non-believers. He went into the local diocesan and parish dens of iniquity not to confirm lost souls in their error nor to blaspheme God with the New Mass which he never offered, but to bring to generations of lost souls the true message of Our Lady of Fatima, which is a message to return to Her Divine Son and His One true Church, the Traditional Catholic Church.
Father Gruner was a traditionalist who preached Fatima, heaven and hell, conversion and damnation, penance and reparation, the sacred liturgy and the rosary, the brown scapular and the First Saturdays, in essence Christian revelation and true devotion to Mary, all according to the will of God and the directives of Fatima. Criticize him if you will, but if truth has any meaning it is by the fruits of this priest’s ministry that we can truly know him. In his almost 40 years of promoting Fatima, Father Gruner may well have been responsible for saving MILLIONS of souls from damnation! Perhaps he saved as many souls as his enemies have scandalized with the lies and falsehoods they spread about him, and apparently are determined to continue spreading. God has done wonderful things through this one priest’s consecrated hands – and that’s the truth!
Only those who believe themselves without sin are now casting the stones of bitter judgment at the name of Father Gruner.....they are rash rather than self-restraining men; lacking Christian virtue, discernment and circumspection. They are one of the reasons many of us have come to believe that the smoke of Satan has penetrated the hearts of so many well-meaning, but naïve and ignorant Catholics.....as well as the Conciliar Church.
The Apostolate under Father Gruner’s development and direction still did a tremendous work for God, just not as completely had there been less of these negative influences. The Fatima Crusader, for example, as excellent as it was, nevertheless routinely held back so much vital information that Catholics are in such desperate need of in order to really defend their Faith and their families, their freedoms and fatherland from the Judaic-Masonic onslaught, and to truly help bring about Mary’s requests at Fatima.
Father Gruner was Canadian born, but his multifaceted Apostolate had a worldwide reach. It became obvious almost from the beginning that he was called to play a leading role in the post-Conciliar fight for the Faith, Fatima being a significant part of that fight. He soon became shepherd to a flock of millions, overseeing a network of Fatima-centered operations online and in publishing, radio, television and in-person talks, having sponsored, organized or appeared as guest speaker at numerous live conferences.Always drawing large crowds, Father Gruner not only made a tremendous difference in the private and devotional lives of millions the world over, but touched the hearts of countless priests and opened the eyes of a growing number of bishops and cardinals who were otherwise lost to an anti-Marian post-Vatican II disorientation. These bishops and cardinals may not yet have turned back to the whole of Catholic Tradition, but Fatima can definitely take them in that direction, and Father Gruner was unquestionably the chief instrument in Mary’s hands that had been leading them to Fatima. Recent popes also felt the strong influence of this humble priest’s passion for all things Marian, even if they remained obstinate in their refusal to honor Mary’s specific requests, which they rejected as many times as they heard them reiterated.
In short, Father Gruner left his mark on the Church struggling against Satanic opposition to spread to every corner of the globe the true and complete message of the Virgin of Fatima. If that message has not entirely been lost to our age, and if the modern world has, at least in part, heard the true cry of Fatima, it was this beloved priest’s apostolate more than any other factor. And notwithstanding the over-all papal unresponsiveness to the Mother of Christ, we may say that Rome itself was to some measure otherwise jolted from its own Conciliar and bureaucratic torpor by this one ministry. Even as the popes failed to consecrate Russia as Mary insisted on, Fatima could now no longer be marginalized by the Vatican, as was previously the case in the unholy spirit of Vatican II. Father Gruner made Fatima a force to contend with – even in the Conciliar Church ravaged by apostasy, which, more than remarkable, was miraculous!
And perhaps equally if not more astonishingly, no less a world power than Russia – RUSSIA, mind you! – was moved by the sheer honesty, energy and fire of this one zealous priest and the movement he launched. Fatima’s mission is preparing the way for “the Universal Reign of Jesus through Mary like no other apostolate on earth.” I think that correctly sums up this one remarkable priest’s remarkable life work. Could a humble, devout and intrepid apostle of Our Lady have devoted his ministry and his life to a more exalted, holy and urgent cause than this?
The Fatima Priest, as he was appropriately called, was a veritable “Force of One,” championing the cause of the Mother of Our Savior and Her Divine Son’s one Church in this age of rampant apostasy that was driven forward with demonic fury by no less an organized evil than the Judeo-Masonic Conspiracy. Father Gruner was a latter-day voice crying in the wilderness, and while a majority turned a deaf ear to his prophetic warnings, many had come to hear his message – Mary’s message – recalling from error and sin religious leaders no less than common people from every continent.
Father Gruner was making lots of progress – and a lot of waves in the Vatican and elsewhere. Was he not issued a stern warning, a few years ago, by a concerned fellow priest immediately after having been physically assaulted and bruised by a pair of thugs at the Fatima Shrine in Portugal, that he was in great danger coming to the Shrine? Loved by the pure of heart, he was very much feared and hated by those who were, to one degree or another, committed players or witting pawns of Judeo-Masonry. Indeed, some of the world’s most powerful and corrupt men in religion, banking and politics who have a vested interest in the modern apostasy, would conceivably have sought, at all costs, to keep their crimes and conspiracies from being exposed via revelations contained in the Third Secret, which was never closer than at present to being released to the world, thanks to Father Gruner’s unceasing and heroic efforts.
For sure Father Gruner had deadly enemies. – pending of course forthcoming evidence – in light of the recent interest in Fatima by none other than Vladimir Putin, the ex-KGB-turned-Christian-leader of Christian post-Soviet Russia, a seemingly genuine patriot and man of peace, perhaps the last standing sane head of state on the world stage. Mr. Putin is arguably the most hated man in the world, hated by the Zionist West, hated by the Zionist-dominated world media, hated by millions of Zionist-duped American citizens who have swallowed all the anti-Putin propaganda unleashed by the Talmudic Overlords who are the world’s ruling elite and who have the capability to censor and make Zionist-friendly practically every major news item, just as they were able with relative ease to secularize and Jewify every former Christian nation by way of religious liberty and the rights of man; just as they were able to Protestantize and Jewify the very Church of Christ by way of Vatican II “renewal” and “modernization”.
Time may well unveil something of a link between Father Gruner, and Mr. Putin’s recent strong interest in Our Lady of Fatima, including the Consecration of his native Russia as a pre-condition for world peace, Putin’s distrust of Rome and confidence in Father Gruner and the Fatima Center (he had visited Father Gruner with Fatima in mind), and the hatred that important men have for both Father Gruner and Mr. Putin.
If it’s true that a man can be judged by his friends and enemies, what does it tell us that the Blessed Mother, Father Gruner and Vladimir Putin have some of the same friends and enemies?
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope,
and I love Thee. I ask pardon for
those who do not believe, do not
adore, do not hope, and do not love Thee.
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and
Holy Ghost, I adore Thee profoundly,
and I offer Thee the Most Precious
Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of
Our Lord Jesus Christ, present in all
the tabernacles of the world,
in reparation for the outrages,
sacrileges and indifferences by
which He is offended. And by the
infinite merits of His most Sacred
Heart and the Immaculate Heart of
Mary, I beg of Thee the conversion
of poor sinners.
Our Lady of Fatima, Queen of the Holy Rosary, pray for us Catholics, that we’ll be united in His Truth!
Funny that you should mention Putin. He arrived after the JPII consecration.
Let’s stick to one topic at a time, though, as I feel as if you are flooding me with a ton of other information on each reply. I’d like to communicate well here, so maybe if we talk on one point at a time, that would be possible.
Have you ever heard Fr. Gruner say that Fatima was a new public revelation?
Why do I feel that you have something else in mind, especially, that all information is available to you within the touch of your finger. I am sure you surf all the ‘traditional blogs’, and you still remain in your willful error. Your intentions are a mystery to me, and to many, but not to God, for He knows our hearts. If your intentions are wicked, God will grant you the grace to remain in your blindness, but if they are sincere, loving ‘truth’, God will grant you the grace to have a ‘fearless faith’, to be a ‘true soldier of Christ (without blemish), as we all ought to be.
Funny that you should mention Putin.. ‘He arrived after the JPII consecration. (I mentioned Putin because Russia plays a decisive role in the Fatima Message. Yes, Putin arrived after the JPII consecration of the world, yet Our Lady requested that Russia be named as the object of that consecration…in union with all the bishops of the world. The stark reality is, like his predecessors, Pope John Paul II failed to consecrate Russia to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart because he feared man more than God……Miserere, Domine!).
Since that ceremony took place there has been no sign of the conversion of Russia to the one true Catholic Faith. There is no peace…to the point that on the 20th anniversary of the 1984 ceremony Pope John Paul II himself lamented: “Twenty years later, the world is still marred by hatred, violence, terrorism and war. … So much blood continues to be shed in many regions around the world. … The wait for justice and peace becomes longer and longer in every part of the world.”
Clearly, the 1984 ceremony has not produced the benefits promised by the Virgin at Fatima. Since the Virgin could never make a false promise, there is only one possible explanation for the state of affairs in which we find ourselves: a consecration of the world is simply not what Our Lady requested. As Sister Lucy herself stated in response to the question (by Father Umberto Maria Pasquale) whether Our Lady had ever mentioned consecrating the world as opposed to Russia: “No, Father Umberto! Never! At the Cova da Iria in 1917 Our Lady had promised: I shall come to ask for the Consecration of Russia … In 1929, at Tuy, as She had promised, Our Lady came back to tell me that the moment had come to ask the Holy Father for the Consecration of that country [Russia].”
Since 1984 Father Gruner consistently maintained, in keeping with Sister Lucy’s own testimony, that a consecration of the world could not fulfill Our Lady’s request —— a conclusion that should be perfectly obvious to any reasonable observer, given the condition of Russia, the world and the Church today. As the evidence mounts that Father Gruner was right, various apologists for the untenable claim that a consecration of the world is just as good as a consecration of Russia have stepped up their attacks on Father Gruner and his Fatima apostolate.
Taken from Christopher Ferrara
Have you ever heard Fr. Gruner say that Fatima was a new public revelation?………. YES! Please help yourself and read……but not without saying a prayer to the Holy Ghost, that you may properly understand these ‘truths’……….http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr74/cr74pg32.asp
“He who believes the prophetic mission of Fatima is over would be deceiving himself.” Pope Benedict XVI at the Cova, on May 13, 201, in his sermon for the Holy Mass commemorating the first apparition at Fatima.
Why do you keep flooding me with long quotes?
Among other things, Ferrara demonstrates ignorance of the state of affairs in Russia with that quote. As you said, with all the information at his fingertips, he should have mentioned the many changes, stark and rapid changes that happened in Russian life.
But, let’s go back to my question, which you don’t want to answer: have you heard Fr. Gruner say that Fatima was a new public revelation?
You answered “yes.”
There can be none. It is heresy to say that. Why? Because all public revelation was complete with the death of the last apostle. I’m not inventing this. It’s what Mother Church has told us for her 2000 years!
Now, let’s go to the next question. Why would Fr. Gruner allege heresy and impute error to Our Blessed Mother?
If you allow me, I will continue further, quoting again from the book;
“The Greek word for ‘ecumenism’ is ‘oiko-menos’, which literally means, ‘that which belongs to the house.’ The ‘house,’ which St. Paul calls the ‘household of faith” (Gal. 6:10) is, of course, the Roman Catholic Church. At every single ecumenical council up until Vatican II, only the Catholic bishops of the world – those who belonged ‘to the house’ – participated in the proceedings. This is precisely what ‘ecumenism’ means – an expression of true Catholic unity between the Pope and his bishops – and thus why these councils are called ‘ecumenical.’
However, at Vatican II, Pope John XXIII, after burying the Third Secret of Fatima, invited two Russian Orthodox ‘ministers’ (that is, two formal schismatics and heretics) to formally attend the council. This unprecedented and scandalous act also requires reparation and atonement, which will be achieved when the Catholic bishops of the world, at the exclusion of heretical and schismatic ‘Christian’ ministers (who will not be invited to participate like the assemblies at Assisi), consecrate Russia to Our Lady’s Immaculate Heart. This collegial consecration will demonstrate to the world that the pope is the Vicar of Christ on Earth and that heretics and schismatics must submit to his authority (including the Russian Orthodox). The act will also confirm the dogma of the papacy (attacked by the ‘errors of Russia’) which was declared by Pope Boniface: “We declare, say, pronounce, and define that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, ‘Unam Sanctam’, November 18, 1302).
This also means that consecration has a salvific purpose. After all, while the temporal effect of Russia’s consecration will be a period of peace on Earth, the spiritual effect will be Russia’s conversion to the Catholic Faith. Hence, the predominant (and most important!) component of the Message of Fatima is the salvation of souls. Remember, Our Lady told the children to sacrifice and make reparation for sinners. She also showed them a vision of hell: “You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart.
The conversion of Russia to the Catholic Faith is not only a matter of common sense, but is also confirmed by Father Joaquin Alonso, perhaps the greatest scholar on Our Lady of Fatima. Father Alonso writes: “....we should affirm that Lucia always thought that the ‘conversion’ of Russia is not to be limited to the return of the Russian people to the Orthodox Christian religions, rejecting the Marxist atheism of the Soviets, but rather, it refers purely, plainly and simply to the total, integral conversion of Russia to the one true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.” (Fr. Alonso, ‘La Verdadsobre el Secreto de Fatima, Fatima sin mitos, Ejercito Azul, Madrid, 1988, p. 78).
Sadly, the Modern Church has perverted the Message of Fatima with a counterfeit consecration (of the ‘world’ versus ‘Russia’), a counterfeit ecumenism (gathering of heretics versus Catholics), and a counterfeit peace plan (praying with pagans at Assisi versus invoking the Mother of God in the consecration of Russia). It is no wonder why the Church and the world are on the precipice of divine judgment.
Mr. Manos I am sorry, that I have caused the flow of your blood little faster, then usual, that certainly was not my intention……please forgive me. Why these long quotes, to prove to your readers, since you failed to do it, why Russia MUST be consecrated…..it matters little if you do not like it. When you took this responsibility on your shoulders of writing a blog, you should have foreseen that you are bound by God to write truth, and nothing but truth. Sorry, but you have bravely posted that you welcome our comments…….so there you have it. This is my last post……I thank you for being so patient with me. This last post is very interesting……make sure you read it.
May God bless you abundantly!
WHY RUSSIA? THE JEWISH CONNECTION......During the twentieth century there were many nations in the world who were a threat to Christianity, Germany, China, Japan, North Korea, to name a few, headed the top of the list. But Our Lady identifies only one of them – Russia. One might think that in the early twentieth century Germany would better fit the description of being a potential global menace much more than Russia. But obviously, Heaven would know the truth much better than we would know it. After all, for the five centuries prior Russia had been ruled by a Christian czar from the Romanov dynasty and Heaven gave no concern about its disposition. But in 1917 the leadership in Russia changed, and it was a drastic change. The Christian czar was overthrown by the avowed atheist Vladimir Lenin, who was directed by the Communist Manifesto of Karl Marx. It was the worst evil ever to hit the Earth, and it is still growing by leaps and bounds.
The key is that Karl Marx was not just a Communist but a Jew who led a Zionist revolution that not only wanted to destroy Christianity and the Catholic Church but which also had the indefatigable goal of placing the Jews as the rulers of the world. Cardinal Augustine Hlond, the primate of Poland, states: “It is a fact that Jews are waging war against the Catholic Church, that they are steeped in free-thinking and constitute the vanguard of atheism, the Bolshevik movement, and revolutionary activity (E. Michael Jones, ‘The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit’).
In the Soviet newspaper ‘The Communist, M. Cohen writes: “Without exaggeration one can make the assurance that the great social revolution in Russia was carried out by the Jews....the Jews lead the masses of the Russian proletariat.”
Douglas Reed, the renowned British historian and author in the 1950’s of ‘The Controversy of Zion,’ (1985) explains: “What is clear is that each stage in the ruination of the West, during these 170 years (1789-1959), has been accompanied by successive stages of ‘the return’ to the promised land.....to the ‘heathen’ masses of Christendom the process which began with the emergence of the world-revolution in 1789 has been merely one of sound and fury, signifying nothing; but the student perceives that in majestic rhythm it fulfills The Law and The Prophets of Judah....’'The French revolution was the world-revolution in action, not a revolution in France......
Before then people might indulge notions about suffering peasants, stung to sudden uprising by arrogant aristocrats and the like, but diligent study of the background of the French revolution dispels such illusions. It was the result of a plan and the work of a secret organization revealed before it occurred; it was not merely a French outburst produced by French causes.....’The French revolution of 1789 is the one that provides the key to the mystery. It forms the link between the English one of 1640 and the Russian one of 1917 and reveals the whole process as a planned and continuing one......the climax, foreseeably, will take the shape of an attempt to consummate and complete the world-revolution by setting up a world-government under the control of the organization which has guided the revolutionary process from its start.”
Consistently verifying Reed’s take on thing, ‘La Civilta Cattolica’ the Jesuit journal sponsored by Pius IX, saw the same: “That series of assertions which in 1789 was said to be synthesis of the ‘rights of man,’ in fact represented nothing but the ‘rights of Jews.....these rights were, so to speak, the bulwark of power by means of which Judaism, in our century, laid siege to Christian society, assaulted it, upset it and, to a great extent, overtook it. This is seen in the universal stupor in which Europe finds itself as it perceives that gold, the dissemination of ideas, and the political-irreligious tendency of its states are nearly entirely in Hebrew hands.” And again......’From May 1, 1789, the day when the ‘rights of man’ were glorified purely on behalf of the Jews, until September 20, 1870, when Rome was conquered with shells and the Papacy made a prisoner, the conspiracies, the uproars, the rebellions, the assassinations, the massacres, the wars, the so-called revolutionary deeds, everywhere and always had the same success of increasing the Hebrews’ wealth and of humiliating and oppressing the Christian civilization.” (Reed, ‘the controversy in Zion).
‘La Civilta’ gave a most apt comparison for the Catholic to ponder: “As in the time of Arianism, the hour in which the Christian world, without realizing it, found itself Arian, thus today, Europe finds itself mired, and to a great extent no longer Christian, but Jewish or Judaizing.” (ibid.) Perhaps it was no coincidence that Arius was a Jew (Alexandrian) whose principal heresy was denying the deity of Christ just as the Jews in the 1800’s were making it the major heresy of Europe and abroad. In essence, the cries for ‘democracy’ in 1789 were little more than disguised Jewish assaults on the reigning Catholic monarchies, which is the same cry we hear today in order to eliminate ‘the Catholic problem’ and promote Zionist hegemony in it’s place.
To read the Jewish Infiltration into the Catholic Church, please read…..’The Consecration of Russia’ by John Salza and Robert Sungenis. Also please read encyclicals of holy Popes pre-Vatican II, who as good ‘shepherds’ have warned us about all these evils that have almost paralyzed all of the hierarchy. Pray for holy Father, pray for the bishops and priests. May God in His Mercy grant us many holy, and courageous priests, and many holy religious vocations.
Also, please offer many Rosaries, that holy Father will consecrate Russia to the Immaculata…..and for the conversion of the Jews, for we truly are ‘our brothers keepers’.
Wow. Please stop insulting me. I see these quotes as half-truths. They omit as much as they tell. It’s sad. For them being crusaders and acting as if they researched, then I expect them to state the obvious. Instead, they skip over it.
Now… No more flood of quotes, OK? I will begin deleting them.
Get back to what I asked you. Why would Fr Gruner teach an error?
@Halina
Thank you so much.
Mr. Manos writes: But, let’s go back to my question, which you don’t want to answer: have you heard Fr. Gruner say that Fatima was a new public revelation?
You answered “yes.”
Halina Writes: YES! Please help yourself and read……but not without saying a prayer to the Holy Ghost, that you may properly understand these ‘truths’……….
http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr74/cr74pg32.asp
Mr. Manos…It’s rather long, but here’s the part in which Fr. Gruner explains what he means when he says Fatima Message is public, prophetic revelation.
Public Prophetic Revelation
The next theological position is that the Message of Fatima is not a private revelation, nor is it part of the Deposit of Faith, but it nevertheless carries with it the solemn obligation — before God and man — to believe it, to obey it as well as to defend it and advance it to the extent of our power and possibilities.
Even if the previously outlined position that “Fatima is in the Bible” turns out not to be defined by a future Pope at a future date; nevertheless, we are still obliged to believe and obey the Fatima Message and requests.
This third position is a clear answer to the false statement that “Fatima is only a private revelation”. As we shall see, this third position is based on Sacred Scripture and on right reason.
It shows that those who claim, even people like Cardinal Ratzinger or Father Fox, that we (or the Pope or bishops and priests) are not obliged to believe and obey Our Lady of Fatima are clearly wrong.
This third position, very simply then, is that the Blessed Virgin Mary’s Message of Fatima is a public, prophetic revelation. And this is a position that has been elucidated more completely by better theologians than myself. You will find among them Bishop Graber of Germany, who tells us that those who say that Fatima is a private revelation that can be ignored are wrong.9 You’ll find the same position held by Father Joseph de Ste. Marie, a Carmelite theologian who taught in Rome.10 He also quotes other theologians who maintain that those who say that Fatima’s just a private revelation and one need not pay attention to it, are badly mistaken.11
And what is a private revelation? A private revelation, strictly speaking, is a message to an individual from God or a saint that he is bound to believe. So, if Our Lady appeared to one of you, or your patron saint appeared, and told you what you must do in order to save your soul, or what you must do tomorrow, or even in the next hour, that revelation which you have, which no one else can verify, would be private and no one else would be bound to believe it except yourself.
Fatima is Public
But Fatima is not unverifiable, and it’s not a message for one individual. It’s a public message given to the whole Church and verified by a public miracle and public prophecies. And the consequences of ignoring the requests of Our Lady of Fatima are catastrophic. Fatima is a public, prophetic revelation, and as such, once the Church has examined it and found it worthy of belief, Natural Law and Sacred Scripture tell us what we must do. In 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21, St. Paul writes “Do not extinguish the spirit. Do not despise prophecies. But test all things and hold fast that which is good.”
Fatima is Prophetic
The Message of Fatima is a public revelation; it’s a prophecy. The Church has tested it and found it to be good and, therefore, we are bound to hold fast to it. To take the attitude that it can be ignored without consequences would be to despise prophecy. Otherwise, we would be extinguishing the spirit, and if we could do that, we could then say “Well, it’s uncomfortable for me to consecrate Russia,” or “It’s uncomfortable for me to pray the Rosary every day,” or “It’s uncomfortable for me to do this or to do that, and so I don’t want to do it.”
It is what Sister Lucy in her famous interview with Father Fuentes spoke about: To refuse the known truth is a sin against the Holy Spirit. God has given the evidence that the Message of Fatima comes from Him.
It’s not the same as or to be confused with the public revelation which was complete with the death of the last apostle.
The Fatima Message is public, it’s prophetic and it’s revelation because by virtue of the Miracle of the Sun, God has given us the evidence the Message of Fatima comes from Him.
mr. manos writes: Now, let’s go to the next question. Why would Fr. Gruner allege heresy and impute error to Our Blessed Mother?
Fr. Gruner did no such thing. That’s a foolish question on your part.
Fr. Gruner did no such thing.
au contraire, he accused John Paul II of being in sin for not performing, as Fr. Gruner interpreted, the consecration. He enlarged the “obligation” of Fatima. Our Lady asked that we do prayer and penance for the salvation of others from hell and purgatory. She asked us to accept all sufferings sent to us.
It’s that last part that people forget about and that the Fatima crusaders drop from the tirades all the time. Our Lady of Fatima is principally telling us that we need to take up our cross. Everyone does mention praying the Rosary each day. That’s good. But they drop the other part: “Will you offer yourselves to God, and bear all the sufferings He sends you? In atonement for all the sins that offend Him? And for the conversion of sinners?”
Back to Gruner… yes, he erroneously alleged that the private revelation portions of Fatima, particularly the consecration, imposed a moral obligation on each of us. And he’d fault the pope for doing it not in the way Fr. Gruner imposed. That was wrong on multiple accounts.
First, he had no province and inadequate means to judge the Holy Father.
Second, he was in error to impose a moral obligation where there is none.
Third, the obligation imposed by Fatima is already that known to the Church: we must “take up our crosses, and Follow Our Lord.” Mary did not ask you and me to consecrate Russia. She asked you and me “to offer [our]selves to God, and bear all the sufferings He sends [us] in atonement for all the sins that offend Him [a]nd for the conversion of sinners.”
That’s the message of Fatima: God is real, there are sins, people go to hell, and the world is suffering because of it. The remedy we can offer is offering ourselves to God (such as I suggest on this post) and accepting all suffering as from the hand of God (Fr. Hardon taught this as well).
Our Lady of Fatima did not ask you or me to be Pope.
Sandra/Halina, you can go on and on about the infiltration of the Church, but you’ve apparently missed the numerous posts I’ve made on this. I haven’t been polite about it either — see “Judases in the Church” or specific examples.
Fatima is not what you say of it because you’ve allowed that liar to seduce you. Fatima is a call to suffer with Our Lord because idiots who ought to know better, i.e. us Catholics, keep trying to make ourselves Pope, engage in Communion in the Hand, and other offenses instead of reparation.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Fatima wasn’t a wedge to drive between the Pope and the faithful, and yet, that’s precisely what Fr. Gruner turned it into. He used it as a way to pit the faithful against the Holy Father. That’s diabolic. There is no other way to describe such treachery. Yet, you accused me of being confused.
If you want to get into the mechanics of Church infiltration as you suggested with the earlier quotes, then I expect you to be prepared to discuss just how deep that rabbit hole is. While it is fun to be able to show how the secrets of Fatima reveal that Blavatsky’s theosophy would unleash of new wave of luciferian self-deification that spread into the UN, into our country, and created the arian myth, as well as the eugenics — not to mention the specifics of the occult groups that would overtake Rome, we can. But don’t give me that poorly researched and abstract copy/paste from Gruner’s site and from the amateurs. It’s not essential to Fatima… that’s the thing. The essence of Fatima is that people were no longer responsible enough to take up their Cross and adore God.
Our Lady was right because, even as far as it has spread, people today that claim to love her message at Fatima spend all their day harping on and attacking the Pope instead of doing what she asked.
Our Lady of the Rosary, pray for us!
Amen brother!
Mr.Manos writes: Back to Gruner… yes, he erroneously alleged that the private revelation portions of Fatima, particularly the consecration, imposed a moral obligation on each of us. And he’d fault the pope for doing it not in the way Fr. Gruner imposed. That was wrong on multiple accounts.
First, he had no province and inadequate means to judge the Holy Father.
Second, he was in error to impose a moral obligation where there is none.
Third, the obligation imposed by Fatima is already that known to the Church: we must “take up our crosses, and Follow Our Lord.” Mary did not ask you and me to consecrate Russia. She asked you and me “to offer [our]selves to God, and bear all the sufferings He sends [us] in atonement for all the sins that offend Him [a]nd for the conversion of sinners.”
Truth matters and so do souls and that’s why Our Lady appeared at Quito, La Salette, Akita and Fatima. Our Lady’s messages are that our souls are in danger of being swallowed up in the tide of apostasy and corruption in the Church and the world. She is the prophetic guide par excellence and gives us the means and directions for avoiding it.
If Our Lady’s Message from Heaven was mere private revelation, then you might have half a case. But it wasn’t mere private revelation; it was exactly as Fr. Gruner described…public prophetic revelation.
Theologically, prophecy is Almighty God’s teaching and will as delivered to men in the name and authority of God. God raised up prophets for the confirmation of the Faith, the benefit of men and according to St. Thomas Aquinas, “the direction of human acts”. The Fatima Message is a prophecy for our time, a prophetical guide that St. Paul teaches we must “..not despise…”
Almighty God’s will was delivered through Our Lady, the ultimate Prophetess, as She is the Mother of God. Our Lady consigned the prophetic Message to 3 children and confirmed with an unprecedented predicted public miracle on Oct. 13, 1917.
The Fatima prophecies were not private at all, but contained instructions for the Pope, the bishops, was destined for the universal Church and all of humanity. During the Mass for the beatification of Francisco and Jacinta on May 13, 2000 Pope JPII made the public and prophetic character of the Fatima message clear, even hinting at apocalyptic elements, which is why the still unrevealed second part of the text of the Third Revelation (Secret) where Our Lady of Fatima completes the revelation that begins with the statement, “In Portugal, the dogma of the faith will always be preserved etc.” ….
Ten years later, on May 13, 2010 Pope Benedict XVI said, “He deceives himself who thinks the prophetic mission of Fatima is concluded.” So let’s call the Fatima Message what Pope Benedict called it…”a prophetic mission” and move on.
It is for the Church to examine whether the prophecy comes from God, which it has done. And the Church has said “Yes, this message comes from God.” It is then the obligation of the Church, including the Pope and the bishops, to obey God, whose message was given through the Prophet, Our Lady of Fatima.
It is God Who commands the hierarchy. It is God Who gives His message through the prophet to the hierarchy, and it is for the hierarchy to obey, once it has determined that the message indeed comes from God.
Our Lady of Fatima warned that Russia would spread her errors throughout the world and will continue until Russia is consecrated by the Pope and bishops in the manner Our Lady requested. The errors are atheism, atheistic communism and all the evil fruits that follow.
But as long as the Vatican-Moscow agreement remains in force, the Secretary of State will enforce that Vatican itself will be silent regarding the errors of Russia. That’s why Vatican II didn’t condemn Communism….http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a007ht.htm
St.Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica teaches that at all times God sends prophets, and Our Lady is the Queen of Prophets, not to announce new revelations, but to “direct human acts.” Almighty God foresaw the collapse of Faith in the Church and evil times in the world, and sent Our Lady the Queen of Prophets, to prescribe the means and directions for avoiding them.
The Fatima Message comes from Almighty God, and God is definitely above the authority of the Church. He will not be mocked.
Just as Fr. Gruner and many others have asserted, we are obliged to believe the Fatima Message. Even St. Alphonsus points out the parish priest obligation as pastor to take care of us. But that doesn’t just apply to parish priests. That also applies to bishops. Bishops, when they become in charge of a diocese, take that responsibility on willingly. And also it goes for the Pope himself. He has accepted to become Pope. He takes on the role as pastor of all souls. And part of that pastoring requires responding to Our Lady of Fatima’s Message.
It was Pope John Paul II himself who said that the Message of Fatima imposes an obligation on the Church. He said that publicly in his sermon at Fatima on May 13, 1982.
It’s important then for us to remember that Fatima imposes an obligation on the Church, all the members of the Church, including the Pope and the bishops.
And we have been told the consequences of ignoring it: “If My requests are granted, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world raising up wars and persecutions against the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.”
There is no other choice. We must speak up, we must pray especially the Holy Rosary and do penance and we must pray for the Consecration of Russia…for Our Lady’s triumph.
We must insist that even the Pope is bound before God to obey because the Consecration of Russia is essential.
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.
Our Lady, Queen of Prophets, pray for us.
Our Lady, Queen of Peace, pray for us.
Funny that you bring Akita up now, but earlier, when I mentioned it you ignored it.
Stop making the obligation of Fatima larger than it is. You aren’t the Pope, nor am I. Of all the places you mentioned, Fatima, Akita, Quito, etc, the message for you and me is the same: prayer and penance.
You write: Funny that you bring Akita up now, but earlier, when I mentioned it you ignored it.
I think my comments on May 16, @1:19 and 3:07 more than adequately prove that I didn’t ignore Akita. I’ll let it go at that.
You write: Stop making the obligation of Fatima larger than it is.
The obligation of Fatima is what it is…a reality…a specific directive from Heaven. I have absolutely no power to make it larger or smaller than what it is.
You, sir, are the one who is ignoring…
You asked: •Was the Third Secret of Fatima fully revealed?
And turns out Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger told Fr. Dollinger during an in-person conversation that there is still a part of the Third Secret that they have not published!
Even Mother Angelica, may she rest in peace, said on her TV show that “we didn’t get the whole thing.”
My goodness! Look at that! She agreed with Fr. Gruner who said this all along.
Will you accuse Mother Angelica of being guilty of making the obligation of Fatima larger than it is?
Of Fatima, you asked 3 questions…
•Was the Third Secret of Fatima fully revealed?
•Was Russia Consecrated?
•Was Fr. Gruner correct?
and they have been answered, no, no, and yes.
Even though you refuse to publish my response in reference to your assertion that Russia was consecrated by Pope John Paul II, I appreciate your giving me the opportunity to discuss our differences on these other points.
You did ignore it, because you think that Our Lady failed to reveal the part about the problems in the Church. Since you like to copy and paste things, here is a portion of Akita that you keep ignoring:
The message is the same however: repent, pray, and offer suffering in reparation. I see nothing in Akita about becoming or judging the Pope. Nor did Our Lady say that the fire will be stopped by consecrating Russia. Given that this happened in 1973, would Our Lady not mention consecration? She didn’t. She mentioned everything else of the third secret and more.
P.S. You should perhaps be careful putting words in Mother Angelica’s mouth around me. You are incorrect in your assumptions about what she meant because you are hell-bent on justifying Gruner’s errors.
The message of Fatima for you and me has nothing to do with consecrating Russia. It has to do with prayer and reparation. Akita and Quito say the same. None of them add a single iota to public revelation. Instead, they magnify the same message of John the Baptist (my namesake): Repent and turn to the Lord.
An intemperate and uncritical desire for knowledge that, perhaps, was not intended for everyone’s ears has the echo of the temptation of the ancient Serpent in Eden. The simple, humble praying of the Rosary in reparation for one’s own sins and the continual offenses against God and the accepting of one’s crosses and sufferings is the message of Fatima. Nothing else is needed.
As far as I can tell there isn’t a person here (or Fr. Gruner for that matter) who is guilty of having an intemperate and uncritical desire for knowledge (about the Fatima Message).
I do pray “Come Holy Ghost” to have a right judgment in all things and ever rejoice in His consolation.
Speaking of whether we got the entire secret, Benedict vindicated my position today: Vatican Radio reports Benedict says third secret released in full, says statements to the contrary are “totally untrue”